Untruth #2 – China is a Technology and Innovation Leader

Well, how does America do technology transfers?  At least the Chinese pay for the transfer (as contribution to the JV capital). American behemoths, with the blessings of Washington, TALK protection of IP, yet PRACTICE predatory “what’s mine remains mine, but what’s yours is also mine.”  Just look at the typical TOC (Terms and Conditions) that the major American importers demanded of their vendors, and you will find similar provisions everywhere:

“CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION; NONDISCLOSURE

Supplier shall not at any time, during or after the Term of this Agreement, disclose to others, take or use for its own purposes or the purpose of others, any of Company’s confidential information, knowledge, designs, data, know-how, trade secrets, or any other information considered “confidential” or “proprietary” by Company. Supplier understands, agrees and recognizes that this obligation applies, but is not limited to, technical information, designs, marketing and financial information, and any business information that Company treats as confidential. Any confidential information, knowledge, designs, data, know-how, trade secrets, or any other information considered “confidential” or “proprietary” by Supplier which the Supplier shall have disclosed or may hereafter disclose to the Company and which in any way relates to the goods or services covered by this order, agreement or contract, shall, unless otherwise specifically agreed to in writing by the Company be deemed to be confidential or proprietary information and further shall be acquired by the Company free from any restrictions (other than a claim for patent infringement) as part of the consideration for this order, agreement or contract. No cause of action will arise on Supplier’s behalf for Company’s use of any confidential information disclosed to Company, and no damages whatsoever shall accrue to Supplier for Company’s use thereof. Supplier shall keep confidential any and all technical processes and information, economic and financial information, designs, data, marketing information, and any other business information that Company treats as confidential furnished to Supplier in connection with this order, agreement or contract and Supplier shall not divulge, export or use directly or indirectly, such information for the benefit of any other party without obtaining Company’s written permission. Supplier shall return all items belonging to Company and all copies of documents containing such confidential information in Supplier’s possession or under Supplier’s control upon request by the Company or termination of this Agreement.”

[Note how that "what's yours ends up mine" language is craftily hidden in the middle of the passage.  Typical American style drafting.]

You think that is bad?  Try this next clause found in almost all of the contracts from big American buyers:

“INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

Absent a separate express agreement between Supplier and Company and after one year from date of importation of Merchandise into the United States which in any way relates to the goods or services covered by an Order, , Supplier will irrevocably grant to Company a full paid up, royalty free license to make, use, sell and offer for sale any such Merchandise free of any claim of infringement or misappropriation of any intellectual property of Supplier. The aforementioned paid up license will remain in effect until the expiration of any intellectual property relating in any way to the Merchandise.”
__________________

Can you imagine clauses like that imposed on Microsoft, or Intel, etc., by any Chinese entity without causing a fire and brimstone response?? Yet this sort of chicanery is imposed by major American companies in contracts of adhesion on hundreds of thousands of Chinese exporters year in and year out.  The typical Chinese company simply is not in a position to bargain.   As a result, China had been ROBBED of hundreds of billions of dollars of valuable IP over the decades.

What is good must be universal. If IP is to be protected, everyone’s IP should be protected.

Besides, how is the author an authority on Chinese innovation?  In human endeavors, there are many types of innovations.  The most applicable to the 7 billion souls living on earth, are innovations that make technology AVAILABLE.  Availability means affordable prices.  In that regard, China is the most important innovator on Earth in the last 30 years.  Well priced Made in China was literally, empirically, the most efficacious (and some say the only one working) poverty reduction program in the world, serving even most of the American poor.  But for the well priced Made in China, living standards for the less fortunate would have been 1/2 or 1/3rd what they are today. 

Thank God for Chinese innovations.

Just the one bridge in San Francisco (made in China, assembled in the U.S.) saved Americans close to $400,000,000.  It is clear that China is on the correct innovation path.

6.5 million college grads., over half of them in the sciences and engineering.  R&D cost in China is about 1/5th that in the West. 

What on earth are you talking about? Intellectual property laws are practiced and very much enforced in this country.

What on earth are you talking about? Intellectual property laws are practiced and very much enforced in this country.

Because he lives in China, started businesses in China, and has witnessed what is going on first hand. You may like to question his authority in this subject, but you would be mistaken. This article is well-written and well researched.   Nice work WC.

Because he lives in China, started businesses in China, and has witnessed what is going on first hand. You may like to question his authority in this subject, but you would be mistaken. This article is well-written and well researched.   Nice work WC.

mmm..yes, let’s see how long that bridge lasts.

mmm..yes, let’s see how long that bridge lasts.

You did not even read my post.  There is more than one way to steal.  Granted Americans are much more sophisticated at it.

If the situation is as bad as the writer makes it sound like, are American businessmen (including the author) ALL FOOLS?

Hardly.  They are in China because it is hugely profitable.  By 2010, the 60,000 American companies are making more than $100 Billion in PROFITS in and from China.  That is at least 5 or 6 times the profits made on the exports from China to America.  The profit balance is grotesquely inequitable, since the American Congress has blocked most Chinese majors from entering the U.S. markets.  Walmart has 350 stores in China; YUM BRANDS more than 4,000. WHAT Chinese entity is allowed that sort of footprint in America?

Fair trade has to mean fair profits. 

Of course it’s hugely profitable – Chinese companies exploit underpaid workers and do not enforce the same labor and environmental laws as U.S. companies do. Why would Chinese companies come to the U.S. where they would be forced to comply with sane environmental and labor laws? 

Fair trade has to mean equal regulations! 

Regulations are social contracts, and they are different in each country, because of the different national needs.  Americans consider it a Constitutional right to use 4 to 10 times as
much gasoline compared to developing nations (“Don’t you dare infringe
upon my freedoms!”).  If everybody in the world has that, the world runs out of gas literally.

The Chinese would love to have the world’s cleanest water, the cleanest air, and 30 hour work weeks.  What you consider as sane would be a luxury in other countries. That is not yet reality today.  Does not mean that Beijing is not working on achieving that long term.  You play the hand you are dealt.

It is not clear what the author’s point or purpose is.  To paint China and the Chinese as undesirables?  To say it is dumb to do business with China (like he is doing)? 

I believe it is to point out that U.S. companies that claim to follow certain “Corporate Ethics” should not be doing business with a country that allows 60+ hour work weeks, the exploitation of child labor, and open dumping of toxic wastes just to name a few. All of these things have been well documented if you click on “Inside China” and read through the author’s other articles.

You are attempting to obfuscate the real issues (30 hour workweeks – are you kidding me?) China has completely horrid working conditions as well documented in our “Inside China” series, they have no respect for human life as well documented in WC’s early series….you are either unaware of the realities in China, or you are very aware of them and are simply trying to defend the indefensible. My guess is the second.

Furthermore, your comment that “regulations are social contracts” is clearly a PRC-style attempt to manipulate the meaning of words in order to ignore the basic truth that China ignores and tramples upon basic human rights that every human on earth holds true regardless of nationality or culture. “National Needs”? National needs to not trump human rights. The PRC does not have the right, even though it believes that it does.

You play the hand you are dealt.  When the Chicoms took over China (about 60 years ago), it was poorer than dirt.  Over 80% illiteracy, with life expectancies approaching that of Africans. Plus it was abundantly clear that Beijing has to do it all by itself – glaring example was that during the famines in the early years, not a single Western country, America included, lifted a finger to help.  The Chicoms learned early that if they are to do anything, the Chinese have to do it themselves.

Every country goes through its own set of explorations during the early years of the nation.  China is no exception.  Under Mao, there were policy mistakes.  There is a huge gap (like 100 times) and difference between what the Chinese were making and producing, vs. that of the rich nations.  The Chicoms as national leaders had to come up with ways to improve the lives of all Chinese.  But basically the nation and her people stuck to the social contract of “bear the burdens of 3 generations in one, and do the work of 2 generations in one.”  The results are there for all to see. 

Your harping about regulations and work conditions are silly.  Neither America nor any of the other rich countries was or is going to share their wealth – the Chinese have to work for every single dollar of savings, penny by penny.  Most of the workers chose to work in the harsher conditions of the cities, rather than staying behind to rural leisure (but no income). And they are proud of their accomplishments. 

International regulations (meaning the usurpation of national sovereignty) would be fine, if the richer nations are going to share what they have.  So do you see that happening?  10 years after Kyoto, NONE of the rich nations had delivered on their promises of technology to help clean up the environment, one that is enjoyed by all.

All this silly talk about human rights is simply attempts at subversion.  Beijing enjoys 87% Chinese support.  What about your government?  How does it deliver on the most important human right – that of the largest number of citizens to improve their lives year after year?

That’s the responsibility of the insurance carriers who thought enough of the Chinese contractor, to sell the billion dollar performance bonds.

That’s the responsibility of the insurance carriers who thought enough of the Chinese contractor, to sell the billion dollar performance bonds.

For a Chinese living outside of China, it is vexing to read silly gripes such as the article here.  What is the author talking about?  That China is so horrid that no American company should be doing business there?  The facts are clearly directly opposite.  Over 60,000 of the smartest American businesses are in China, annually (by 2010) making over US$100 billion in profits.  FDI into China leads the world, so Beijing must be doing something right.

So if that is not true, what else is the author trying to proof?  That the Chinese are inadequate somehow?  That is so stupid an idea.  China under
SWCC already wrought the world’s largest industries in steel, cement, and aluminum, shipbuilding, autos, 90% of rare earths produced, No. 2 supercompu­ter in the world, the fastest and biggest high speed train network (just last week tested another 500 km/h train, the fastest of them all), the biggest gene splicing complex in the world, etc., etc., AND with $3.2 Trillion in cash to spare, and almost NO foreign debts.  Achieving all of that in a short 60 years (actually only 33, since the Deng reforms in 1978), and that’s all because the Chinese are NOT INNOVATIVE? 

AND don’t forget that China now has life expectancies and infant mortality rates that are not much worse than that in America, even with this so called 50 year gap in medical technology. You do not think there is innovation in managing the health care for 1.3 billion? Late 2010, China adopted a national basic medical insurance program for ALL Chinese citizens, making it the largest of its kind in the world. You don’t think that is an innovation?

The Chinese innovations are so sophisticated and forward looking, even American Nobel Prize (economics) winners can’t explain how the Chinese did it after the fact, let alone coming up with an American version of it.  Look at the Washington Consensus, and the developing nations that followed that prescription, and examine the turmoils they went through in the last 30 years (when America sneezed, they die of pneumonia). 

China’s was the ONLY major economy in the WORLD that consistently performed in the last 30 years, and there is lots in that for the world to learn and to emulate. Many developing nations are finding that to be a viable alternative.

Plus your have to look at what China DOES NOT have under the Chicoms. 

Irresponsibility is not freedom.

China does not have gun (“freedom”) policy that directly results in 135,000 shot and killed year after year (CDC reports 30,000 for America).

China does not have a national policy, promulgated with the support of all politicians (on both sides of the aisle in America) that enable and encourage all of the big banks and other financial institutions to gamble at a level 50 times the size of the national economy (Bloomberg reported that as of June 2011, the derivatives casino reached US$700 Trillion in size), or over 40 times the total balance sheet assets of the gamblers (total American bank balance sheet assets are about $16 Trillion).

China does not have an internet which most profitable (some say only profitable) trade is porn.

Again, irresponsibility is not freedom.  These may not be innovations, but being able to stand firm and guard against getting infected by cancers festering in foreign systems, makes China more desirable as an investment and new business destination.

That’s interesting, so you don’t see the resources of Western companies building entire facilities on Chinese soil and creating local Chinese jobs as “sharing what they have” – then, what exactly would you consider as such? And human rights as an “attempt at subversion?” Beijing enjoys 87% Chinese support? Where are your sources for that figure – the PRC? I will not be allowing any more of your baseless propaganda – you clearly work for the PRC – unless you include references with your so-called “facts”.

Oh I see – no cares at all about the lives that may be lost if the poorly-built bridge collapses, at least there’s insurance. Typical PRC thinking.

Oh I see – no cares at all about the lives that may be lost if the poorly-built bridge collapses, at least there’s insurance. Typical PRC thinking.

You rather drive on a bridge that has no insurance?  Is that American thinking?

Censorship means that you have already lost the argument.

No – allowing lies without evidence is the same as allowing someone to scream loudly in a room so that no intelligent conversation can take place.

I would rather drive on an American-made bridge, or at least made by laborers that are properly trained.

So China has lost the argument since the turn of the millenium?

You said ”
Regulations are social contracts, and they are different in each country, because of the different national needs.”
China does not even obey its own regulations, rendering these ‘social contracts’ invalid. 

You said “The Chinese would love to have the world’s cleanest water, the cleanest air, and 30 hour work weeks.  ”

Then why don’t they do it? Why does China allow their companies to pollute the air and water? 
In the USA we do not allow it or punish it when it occurs. In addition, if it is true that China wants this, then why does Beijing still refuse to measure pm2.5, the most dangerous amount of air pollution?

You said “It is not clear what the author’s point or purpose is.  To paint China and the Chinese as undesirables?  To say it is dumb to do business with China (like he is doing)?”

The point in this post seems clear to me. The author wrote “In an attempt to justify outsourcing US employment to China….thus we must send our R&D there…They do not want us to know the truth.” 

Why is it so difficult for people from China to discuss things like their country, their history, the Falun Gong, the communist party and such without getting emotional?

You said, ”
 Beijing has to do it all by itself – glaring example was that during the famines in the early years, not a single Western country, America included, lifted a finger to help”
Are you asserting that the rest of the world owes China anything? Are saying that with over 20% of all the people on the planet you could not help yourselves?

You said “All this silly talk about human rights is simply attempts at subversion.  Beijing enjoys 87% Chinese support.”

Is this a surprise? Mao was the greatest mass murderer of all times and he is idolized in China. Thus, to say that a country who killed more of their own over the past century than were killed throughout her history backs the brutal communist regime speaks more to the mentality of the Chinese today.

You said ”
 saved Americans close to $400,000,000″.
There is a thing called the multiplier effect, you should read about it. To say money was saved is subjective and depends on your definition. 
For instance, had those jobs been filled by qualified Americans then a portion of  the money they earned would have gone to the purchase of goods and services which buoys the economy. In addition that lost money could have gone into paying mortgages, buying cars and sending one’s children off to college. Another portion of that ‘savings’ would have gone into state and federal taxes which enables more such projects and the continuance of programs like social security medicare etc. 
What did we really save? 

You said ”
 saved Americans close to $400,000,000″.
There is a thing called the multiplier effect, you should read about it. To say money was saved is subjective and depends on your definition. 
For instance, had those jobs been filled by qualified Americans then a portion of  the money they earned would have gone to the purchase of goods and services which buoys the economy. In addition that lost money could have gone into paying mortgages, buying cars and sending one’s children off to college. Another portion of that ‘savings’ would have gone into state and federal taxes which enables more such projects and the continuance of programs like social security medicare etc. 
What did we really save? 

You said ”
That’s the responsibility of the insurance carriers who thought enough of the Chinese contractor”
So in China it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure quality? Why is this not surprising to me?

You said ”
That’s the responsibility of the insurance carriers who thought enough of the Chinese contractor”
So in China it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure quality? Why is this not surprising to me?

To ”
Zhuubaajie”
be honest, do you get 50 cents per post or do you really believe this stuff?

to Zhuubaajie
I too do not get your point. I am unsure if it is your use of the English language or logical flaws in your arguments. 
 It may be more beneficial for all if you either
a- troll elsewhere
b- make sound arguments as to what it is you wish to say 
I will give an example. In an earlier post you said “ how is the author an authority on Chinese innovation?”
Writers utilize all of the sources at their disposal to inform the society, thus a writer does not have to be an ‘authority’ on a specific topic, but has to have the ability to find the authorities, to understand their ideas and then to analyze and re transmit them. 
Could you please show where the author claims to be an ‘authority on innovation?

to Zhuubaajie…You said ”
Fair trade has to mean equal profits.”
Can you show from which business text you make this assertion?
Fair trade has nothing to do with profits. You are comparing apples to oranges. 

For example:  
A publisher agrees to publish a book and states that the author will receive one dollar per item sold – as an example. The book will sell for ten dollars. 
The book sells $50 million copies netting the author  500k while the publisher can earn up to fifteen percent, as an example. 
Thus, although the profits are not equal, the trade was fair. Both parties agreed upon the outcome.

To “Zhuubaajie” 
A quick google search shows your posting activity and diligence in carrying out your Chinese duty. 

When you Chinese 50 centers post from overseas, do the chicoms pay you in US dollars or do you still receive RMB?

There has to be SOME basis for judging fairness, no? 

From a bilateral perspectiv­e, of course the issue is profit. WHERE in the Bible or Koran does it say that trade (sales) has to be “balanced”­? America sells tech goods that have huge margins, protected by IP monopolies­. Chinese goods are sold with 3-5% margins. Profits balance is a much better and fairer measure of equity. In that balance, America is already WAY AHEAD.

Protection­ism will beget same. America has much more to lose in picking a fight than China. Already the Chicoms are hedging the bets, and seeking to broaden sales to developing nations. More mental jerking off like that displayed here on this site, you make be taken seriously, and out goes the hundreds of billions of dollars in profit advantage (and the associated trillion dollar market value).

Hey, the pigheaded one (moi) had absolutely no say in buying that bridge.  It was Arnold.

“Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who strongly
backed the Chinese project on the basis of an estimated $400 million saving to
the state and who praised “the workers that are building our Bay Bridge” during
a visit to China last September”.

But to follow your argument, it would have been better to spend that extra $400 Mil. since it would have the multiplier effect?  That certainly is a novel view.  WHO’s gonna pay that loan off? 

Besides, American
companies don’t have the fabrication facilities, warehouses, or deep financial
pockets to do these kinds of very large scale projects. ” I don’t think the
U.S. fabrication industry could put a project like this together,” Brian A.
Petersen, project director for American Bridge/Fluor Enterprises, told the
Times.

Every word I type comes from the bottom of my heart.  To suggest that people get paid to write this stuff is silly.

Nitpicking on my diction, I see.  I have never claimed to be an English teacher.  That job does not pay well enough.

OK, “Why should the author be taken seriously?”  How’s that?  WC write in the earlier post (the prequel to this one), something about a Chinese proverb, and he used the word “bullshit” (his diction, not mine) twice.  I question whether he really knows China, since “bullshit” is not a word in Chinese, and there really is no ready equivalent for that word in the language.

By writing the two articles (and others I have not had the pleasure to read, of course), WC is putting himself out as the authority on the subject.  By putting it online, comments and questions would be fair game.

“Chinese duty”??  You mean like what the Antidefamation League does?

New China is but 60 years old.  New nations make mistakes in their earlier years.  America was established upon the extermination of over 95% of American natives in over a century (much like the Australian story).  The Civil War saw the death of over half a million in military conflict – proportionally (as a fraction of the total population) a higher percentage of the population than those who died under the Chairman’s policies. You are not suggesting that America is thus more condemnable, are you?Besides, the true measure of any political system’s strength is whether it is willing and does make amends when mistakes are made.  A look at the most recent generation is the most reasonable.

I was watching a social commentary on the tension between society’s need for development, and to have a nice environment.  Yes, the Chinese TV is short on the “reality” stuff, and filled such such public interest program that try to inform. Consumers complain quite a bit but the Chicoms insist. 

The segment showed the actual meeting between the head of the equivalent of the EPA of that 4th tier city (more like a town in China, with “just” half a million people, and the business development folks.  It was a relatively poor district.  The business guys wanted to bring in a paper plant, that would bring 200 jobs and over half a million dollars in tax revenues to the poor local government.  The EPA guy gave all of the stock answers about why it would be a bad idea, and refused to sign off on the permit.  That particular fight ended with the paper plant going somewhere else. But what was most poignant was the business guy’s comment, to the effect that: “If we have no jobs, how are we going to enjoy the life and the environment?”

Life is about choices.  China could not have gotten from No. 178 in GDP per capita to where she is now, in a short 60 years (something that took the Western nations over 200), without making really tough choices. 

“Why is it so difficult for people from China to discuss things like their country, their history, the Falun Gong, the communist party
and such without getting emotional”

How is that different from discussing Israel (warts and all) with a Jew?  Nanjing massacre with a Japanese?  Abu Grahib or Gitmo with an American?

But for the name calling, at least some of you guys try to argue thoughtfully.  Even the pigheaded one (moi) can respect that.  Hey, people do have different opinions. That’s what debates are for, and may the best facts and arguments win.

Yes, but since Americans would have additional income from an increase in American jobs, they could afford to pay higher prices for higher-quality goods. It’s all relative.

And in all honesty Zhuubaajie, doing business with China is not bad – it’s actually the direction I think everyone wants to go. A global economy is good for everyone. However, it is not a good idea to overlook the tragedy of such severe human rights issues that take place in China. I understand your business case, but you quickly gloss over the fact that the Communist Regime is corrupt, closed-minded.

Money is great – but in America, at least, money at the expense of Liberty and Freedom is a tragedy.

I agree.

Dube:

I can respect that viewpoint.   But the frames of reference are really very different.  The analogy would be that of a dainty European woman travelling in deep dark Africa, complaining about how the locals can live in such squalor, “Just like beasts!” she exclaims.

If indeed there are universal values, the commonality is very low.  Plus once to stir in Judeo-Christianity concepts, or any other brand of religious concepts, the commonality goes even lower.

China clearly has her own needs.  Who would be in the best position to prioritize those needs and try to meet them?  To the extent that all nations are ran by elites, the default answer is that the Chinese ruling elites know best, by definitiion.  And the results are impressive. 

In about 60 years, China has completed industrialization that took almost everyone else 200.  Today China under SWCC has

the world’s largest industries in steel, cement, and aluminum, ship building, autos, 90% of rare earths produced, No. 2 supercompu­ter in the world, the fastest and biggest high speed train network (just this week tested another 500 km/h train, the fastest of them all), etc., etc., AND with $3.2 Trillion in cash to spare, and almost NO foreign debts, what’s not to like?

Going back to the topic of the article, you don’t think innovation went into that?  China’s current system, which is working well, is clearly innovative.  It is diametrically opposite the close mindedness you imagine.  Reforms and changes take place at a pace never before seen with any major political system.  It is America that is falling behind in being responsive to change.

Take just one recent example.  America is still talking about Obamacare, which implementation will take over 10 years going forward, if at all.  Beijing has just COMPLETED implementing a basic health insurance plan for 1.295 billion in 3 years.  4.5 times the size, done in 3 years.

It is you who should be open minded.  Yes the Chicoms have problems, corruption being one of them (but that is a problem with any country, including the U.S.).  But there are clearly many things that the world can learn from China and its superior systemic innovations.

The only thing the Chinese government is innovative at is manipulating the truth. Nearly no external debt? You’re lucky that I allowed your comment, because you didn’t provide a single source for your “facts” yet again. Here’s your “no foreign debt” disinformation debunked: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/2/chinas-debt-to-us-treasury-more-than-indicated/?page=all

Dube:

Dude!!  When folks talk about DEBT, it is debts OWED, not debts OWNED!!  The link you provided shows China OWNS more U.S. Debt securities than publicized (I have no opinion on that).

It would have been more accurate for me to state that China has no net foreign debt.  According to Xinhua, China has about $700 Billion in foreign currency debt:

“BEIJING, Dec. 27 (Xinhua) — China’s foreign debt totaled 697.16 billion U.S. dollars at the end of September, up from 548.9 billion U.S. dollars at the end of 2010, the country’s foreign-exchange regulator said Tuesday.Short-term debt hit 507.63 billion U.S. dollars, equivalent to 72.81 percent of the country’s total foreign debt, while mid- and long-term debt amounted to 189.54 billion U.S. dollars, accounting for 27.19 percent of the total debt, the State Administration of Foreign Exchange said in a statement on its website.”

But since the government (we are not talking about the Chinese  public here, but the govt.) holds over $3 Trillion in foreign currency assets, I still take the position that China has no net foreign debt.

Dube:

You know, the statement that “The only thing the Chinese government is innovative at is manipulating the truth.” has the same effect as “The only thing the white guy is good for is to have bad B.O.”  Neither statement is based on fact.Your “manipulating the truth” could very well be part of making lives better for 1.3 billion year after year.  If by “truth” you mean whatever exists already, indeed the Chicoms are “manipulating the truth”, and doing a rather good job at it.  In the last 33 years, over 400,000,000 lifted out of poverty. 

No – for some reason you’re not understanding. I’m talking about the People’s Republic if China, not all Chinese People. Do you really pay this much homage to the Chinese Government – the same exact government that consistently and repeatedly arrests people for nothing more than talking negatively about the government? Are you for real?

Zhuubaajie – you just posted a comment with a whole litany of figures and statistics but no sources to support them. Please resubmit your comment with evidence/sources to support your claims.

To Zhuubaajie-Did you understand the question? ”
When you Chinese 50 centers post from overseas, do the chicoms pay you in US dollars or do you still receive RMB?”
On a side note, people like Zhuubaajie who earn .50 cents per post, need to post often. To buy just one square meter of housing in  Beijing he’d need to post at least 50,000 times. For this raft of posts Mr Zhu has earned a few US dollars.

To all, do not allow Mr. Zhu to derail the comments. 
If he does not present a logical argument or set of questions then it is pointless to respond to him, it is a waste of energy. 

Google ‘zhuubaajie’ and you will see that he appears to be an active member of the 50 cent army. 

If so, he is a paid 50 center whose goal, per CCP mandate is to attempt to sway public opinion. The energy expenditure required to get through his ill-thought out tomes is not worth the payout vz a thoughtful response on his part. 

If one takes the time to read his responses (which I do not recommend), they will see that there is no logic nor substance to what he says. 

I recommend closing this section to comments or at least deleting those comments that add nothing to the site. 

We should not allow the communist party to assert power over this site.

Here is an excellent excerpt :
The difference between China’s 50 Cent Army and astroturfing is fourfold. First, is scale. A typical astroturfing campaign might involve a few or maybe a dozen people at most…. China’s approach involves thousands of times more people.The second difference is duration. China’s 50 Cent Army works every day, all year, year after year… The reason is that a free press and the machinations of multi-party democracy quickly expose astroturfing projects and turn public opinion against their agendas. Because the Chinese government is accountable to neither the public nor the press, it can sustain Internet mass-propaganda efforts indefinitely. Third, China’s 50 Cent Army, when used abroad, hits people who aren’t expecting it. When a political group in the US fakes a grass roots movement, it does so in an environment where people are skeptical and have their guards up. But most people in the West have no idea that China is constantly swaying public opinion on the Internet, and tend to accept what they see at face value. 

from here
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/chinese-50-centers-this-concerns-everyone-who-surfs-the-web-t21150.html 

Dube:

You allow this kind of B.S. but censor my posts.  You don’t know how ironic it is.

Hahahahaha….

“Banker” demanding censorship!!  On an American site on which the posters complain about lack of freedoms in China.  You truly do not know how ironic it is.

You’re not censored – just provide evidence for the b.s. statistics you make up. Furthermore, the facts in his comment is well-cited regarding 50 centers. Just search our site for “50 Cent Army” and you’ll find a well-researched article on the issue.

I would answer but  my post was censored.

You are not censored. I said provide citations for the b.s. statistics you made up and it will be approved. We don’t allow fabrications here. Read the site and you’ll figure that out quickly. Notice that your posts where you aren’t making up “facts” are being approved?

What’s really funny is not a line of this conversation could exist in China. In fact, the entire website would be completely erased, and all of us would be locked in a prison and charged with something stupid like “having excessive public opinions”.

Another lie. I forwarded it to you via email and told you to cite your sources before it will be published. False, unsupported claims are not allowed here. That’s not censorship, it’s common sense – otherwise counter-intelligence destroys the discourse. That’s not going to happen here.

Another lie. I forwarded it to you via email and told you to cite your sources before it will be published. False, unsupported claims are not allowed here. That’s not censorship, it’s common sense – otherwise counter-intelligence destroys the discourse. That’s not going to happen here.

Dube:

“Banker” tries to hide behind anonymity and avoid liability for libel.  Are you accusing me of being a 50 center also? 

Dube:

“Banker” tries to hide behind anonymity and avoid liability for libel.  Are you accusing me of being a 50 center also? 

“he is a paid 50 center”Banker what is your basis for libeling me?

“he is a paid 50 center”Banker what is your basis for libeling me?

Really? Do you read Chinese?  How would you know?  China has 90 million active blogs, and all manner of subjects are discussed daily.

Really? Do you read Chinese?  How would you know?  China has 90 million active blogs, and all manner of subjects are discussed daily.

It is the nature of open forums – if you don’t like my facts, you are supposed to post your own.  If you don’t like my arguments, you post counter arguments.  Don’t you guys find it drab and dangerous if everyone around you just agree with you (even if you are wrong)? 

If you think my facts are lies, tell me why.  While I will comply with the request, seeing a whole lot of links in any posts (see my latest) simply impede the flow of thought, and makes the post harder to read.  We are not writing doctoral dissertations here.

It is the nature of open forums – if you don’t like my facts, you are supposed to post your own.  If you don’t like my arguments, you post counter arguments.  Don’t you guys find it drab and dangerous if everyone around you just agree with you (even if you are wrong)? 

If you think my facts are lies, tell me why.  While I will comply with the request, seeing a whole lot of links in any posts (see my latest) simply impede the flow of thought, and makes the post harder to read.  We are not writing doctoral dissertations here.

Of course there is a difference between a government pushing innovation and people actually being innovative. Isn’t pushing innovation something to be applauded? Sure as hell is better than philosophy, foot binding, or memorization for tests.  

Hilarious outing of 50 cent poster Zhuubaajie; please note that spamming comments is a method used of suppressing dialogue on comment sections. This technique is common. It would be conducive to this discussion, and also a victory for the common Chinese internet users if you simply erased all of his comments, as well as your replies to them, leaving only one of two that are used to ridicule that kid.

To Guest23- Agreed!

To Guest23- Agreed!

If you or anyone else posts factual claims that are not supported by sources or cited, they will be deleted. It is not my job to do your research for you.

I’m actualy starting to think that he’s just one of those brainwashed Chinese Communist loyalist that loves the hand that spanks them. I’ve seen the same mentality with cult followers – it isn’t until they are outside of the cult that they see the flaws in their logic.

So on Dube’s board here, everyone is equal except China bashers are more equal than others? 

The irony is clearly lost on the audience.

Again, you don’t like my facts, post your own.  You don’t agree with my opinion, try to refute them (with facts).  Name calling – which most of you China bashers have to eventually resort to, shows how weak your hand is – it clearly demonstrates that you have no facts, and no argument skills.

Fifty center??  Is that like, commentators in the Western world, except on a China price?  Since I’ve never met either myself, I would have to rely on your “authority” on that.

Zhuubaajie does not belong to any political party anywhere.  Ideology does not matter.  My rules are simple – if the government improves the lives of the greatest number of citizens year after year, it is a good government.

My business takes me to China and America frequently, and also to most other continents.  For China, I have been to about 35 cities, and to 5 rural areas.  In America, I have been to most of the states.  In both countries I have seen how the poor and the rich live.

I lived through the CR, waved the Bao Diao protest banners in Hong Kong, had once been deeply duped during the TAM incident (not seeing clearly that it was just an earlier version of Western funded attempt at color revolution).  But more relevant is that I have personally witnessed how the lives of the Chinese, both urban and rural, had improved by leaps and bounds in the last 33 years. 

I feel I am more qualified to make the observations here, rather than some American businessman whose “expertise” is grounded on brewski and “action” around Sanlituan when they are in China.

And yes mine is the “same mentality” that you will find amongst most Chinese from around the globe, no matter where they reside. Because (my personal opinion) the Beijing government has done gobs of great things for the Chinese, it is worthy of protection from defamation.

What does that have to to do with calling me a clearly derogatory term when there are no facts to ground that on?

Banker:  Did I hit a sore spot with derivatives?  In my opinion, America’s enemy is not external – America is too rich and powerful for that. Only certain greedy Americans can do the job within the nation, and history proves that they are doing a great job at that. Again, in my opinion, lots of banksters should be thrown in jail and their wealth used to pay for the damages they caused.  That would be justice.

Are you implying that writing on multiple sites (while holding consistent views) is somehow bad (I am using words that hopefully you can understand)?

So your only judgement of a government is whether it improves the economy, regardless of the human and environmental toll? What if a few get rich while the majority get trampled – yet you can point to a booming economy and smile? Let me guess, you are one of those rich Chinese, benefiting from the influx of wealth, yes?

It is a trademark behavior of China’s 50-cent intelligence group. You can search the blog for our article covering the fact that China has launched the new operation, sources and all. The trademark behavior is spamming anti-china forums and blogs with long-winded comments that don’t have any supporting sources or citations. That’s the exact behavior your portrayed, so you can’t blame for people drawing that conclusion.

Thank you – although you forgot to notice the footnote of the Pew research results, “1. As in previous years, the 2010 sample in China is disproportionately urban (67%) compared to China’s population (43% urban). The sample represents roughly 42% of China’s adult population and includes all provinces except Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and Macao.”

Wow, I wonder how the results would have looked had they included those last few…hmm?

And, my friend, do you hope to be that lawyer? Is that your dream?

You’ve made your point, the other side has made theirs. I appreciate your perspective, however much I disagree with your views. I value the balance that you bring to the article. Your points will remain here so readers can review the pro-Communist Chinese perspective as well.

However, I would like to ask that you avoid going overboard and spamming the comments area, if you don’t mind. You’ve made some great comments with citations. Now allow other readers to digest both views – the article’s and your points – and offer their views as well.

I can respect that, and will post no more comments except in response to responses.  Have fun.

“if the government improves the lives of the greatest number of citizens year after year, it is a good government.”Is that not self evident?  Greatest number already takes care of favoring the few.  BTW I believe the GINI index in China is better than that in the U.S. (can’t say I have a link for that).

“if the government improves the lives of the greatest number of citizens year after year, it is a good government.”Is that not self evident?  Greatest number already takes care of favoring the few.  BTW I believe the GINI index in China is better than that in the U.S. (can’t say I have a link for that).

I can respect that; but I submit that the results would not be significantly different statistically re Tibet (2.7 million), Xinjiang (20 million), Hong Kong (7 million) and Macau (600K) – as against a total population of 1.3 Billion. Even if the polls were 100% negative there, it would not move the overall poll by more than a few points.

Unfortunately, any Chinese citizen polled inside of China does not offer an accurate representation of how they truly feel. They would need to be polled outside of an environment of fear and intimidation of prosecution if they dare to speak out against the government. WC has covered this in detail in a prior article.

To Zhu aka 
呆子
Google the gini and you will see you are wrong. In addition, it is so tedious to read your illogical tomes.
If you did live through the CR in China then you are at least 45+ so please act it. Why burden the boards with ignorant comments and half truths?Re the gini,The US is  a bit better than china, but use your head, it’s all relative.China has 500 million people living on less than U$2 per day, this is true poverty. Thus, while the US has terrible income inequality, this means that while the rich have 7 to 8 homes scattered across the world, the poor only have: 1 XBOX, a PSP, four TV’s, cable, 2 Pc’s, high payments on a leased Chevy, and boatloads of McDonalds meals. A level of ‘poverty’ even middle class Chinese have not achieved. I live there, I have seen it. To try and compare the poor in the US and China is foolhardy at best. BTW- Zhu bajie (which, phonetically speaking is the name you have chosen)  is the lazy pig helper  of the Monkey King. I would say that you chose an apropos moniker. Or perhaps 呆子, his original name is better.Google zhu bajie and see for yourselfPlease act your age and be a responsible poster. 

It would appear that Ryan’s point is that economic growth is possible when the mentally ill are strapped to brick kilns to work, children are sold into slavery, kids are crippled so they can beg, humans are overworked, underpaid-if paid at all and the communist party takes a cut of it all. From prostitution to theft the communists are involved. This is the key point.
Think of the power the US could have if they allowed rampant abuse of human rights and no intellectual property protection.
Stay on point, the key according to both the author and Ryan is that we are not told the truth about China.
Stay on point or get off the boards. As a reader it is  tiring to see you attempt to pull a ’50 center ‘ and drag the comments down. 

“Hide behind To Zhu, you said “ tries to hide behind anonymity”and your are posting as Zhubajie, a mythical figure from Chinese lore?
How hilarious. 
If you believe this, then ‘man up’ do a blog, write a paper under your true name. Or maybe post something of interest, but for the love of Pete leave the boards alone. 
Let me guess, you left HK before the return to China so leveraged your Chinese skills into a job which you despise and they despise you. Unfortunately for them, you have played the ‘race card’ which means they cannot fire you, so your day is consumed with writing comments on everything from the Huffington post to the Ohio Daily. 
of course you would never reveal your true identity for how would your neighbors feel if you did?

Here is a quote from the Australian, dated January 16, about how money is made in China
“Apple also said it found 112 facilities that weren’t properly storing, moving or handling hazardous chemicals….
Nearly a third of its suppliers didn’t abide by Apple’s standards on wages and benefits, the company said….the audits also found five facilities that employed underage workers”
The communist party is doing well by allowing this for its people.
There are over 1.34 billion people to exploit so the communists and their kids can emigrate to the USA, Canada and Europe.

Here is a quote from the Australian, dated January 16, about how money is made in China
“Apple also said it found 112 facilities that weren’t properly storing, moving or handling hazardous chemicals….
Nearly a third of its suppliers didn’t abide by Apple’s standards on wages and benefits, the company said….the audits also found five facilities that employed underage workers”
The communist party is doing well by allowing this for its people.
There are over 1.34 billion people to exploit so the communists and their kids can emigrate to the USA, Canada and Europe.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Zhuubaajie is either a spoilt “little emperor” on a nationalistic power trip whose parents are paying his way through life while he spams these boards with Chinese propaganda or is actually being paid to do this. A quick Google search will reveal tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions of posts across a huge array of blogs with hundreds if not thousands of new posts daily. No sane working person could pump out propaganda at that rate and it’s about time people start calling him out for it.

Is democracy perfect?

Is democracy perfect?

Americans posting positive comments about the country are “patriotic”. Chinese posting positive comments about their country are “nationalistic”

Americans posting positive comments about the country are “patriotic”. Chinese posting positive comments about their country are “nationalistic”

I do believe that working standards in America were exactly like that in the 1800s and early 1900s. The type of government has nothing to do with anything. All countries take a cut of everything… they’re called taxes.

I do believe that working standards in America were exactly like that in the 1800s and early 1900s. The type of government has nothing to do with anything. All countries take a cut of everything… they’re called taxes.

Ironic to see that the post of a Chinese has been edited by the allegedly freedom and free speech loving moderators of an American website.

”
And yes mine is the “same mentality” that you will find amongst most Chinese from around the globe, no matter where they reside”
I agree with this individual’s sentiments. The government that can improve living standards for the maximum of people is worthy of protection.

A mere 30 years ago for example, orange juice was not available for sale to the general public in China, and had to be purchased through special stores. Granted the CCP is responsible for the massive screwup in the first place, but conditions are now improving and there is really no point.

Living standards in America, on the other hand, are declining for many as jobs are outsourced.

1 XBOX, a PSP, four TV’s, cable, 2 Pc’s, high payments on a leased Chevy, and boatloads of McDonalds meals. 
Wow are you joking? It sounds to me like you’ve spent your whole life in suburbia in front of your computer. What you posted is not even remotely true. 

Your comment makes no sense. You say that the communist party must be protected for it has raised the living standards,of the people. When it was Mao and the party who,killed over ten percent of the people in aching . It was Mao and the party who starved millions to death in the great leap, it was Mao and the party who taught the leaders of china today to distrust their parents and kill teachers who did not toe the party line, it was the Maoist ideology and the call of Deng Xiao Ping which murdered hundreds of innocents , ensuring china would not reform.
How is a governing body who has killed more people than world war one and two combined, a good thing?
You say living conditions are improving. What you mean to say is that houses are being built. Tibetans are being slaughtered for practicing their religion. Xinjiang is in a perennial state of lockdown due to anger at the Muslims. Muslim women and children are being killed. Uyguir people are jailed for practicing religion. Christians are being jailed for practicing religion,
China just pased a law where you can be held up to six months while not being charged. Yes , they can yank you off the streets for no reason and jail you for 180 days.
It is easy to sing the praises of China, when you do not live there, or have gotten a nice green card or visa, but for thcommoner, china is hell.
They do not elect officials, they cannot speak out about the truth, their press is marginally more free than that of north Korea. Can you share with us what the communist party has done?
and FYI, it was the end of ww2 which got rid of Japan. So what has the party done? Also, remember 40 percent of chinas GDP growth since opening up is due to funds from foreign countries and companies. If anything, the party has stolen enough to create a billionaire. Every 20 days for the past year, while ensuring that social security is a joke and a time bomb waiting to explode.

It’s a fact chines has hundreds of paid bloggers to do what both you and the pigg are doing. The funy thing is that china must open herself up, and as she does so, we get a glimpse into the reality of your country and what we see is astounding. We hear of the great history and culture but yet we arrive, we see the oppression,Mack of rights, horrible education, horrible hygiene, the xenophobia and lack of innovation. The credibility of china shrinks with each foreigner who visits there.